April 30, 2008 - Estimates Debates: Ministry of Energy, Mines and Petroleum Resources
On Vote 27: ministry operations, $43,899,000 (continued).
J. Horgan: Before my colleague from New Westminster took the floor, we were talking about the 20 inspectors housed within the ministry to deal with gravel inspections. I assume that those inspectors also work at other pits, whether they be mineral or coal?
Hon. K. Krueger: That's correct.
J. Horgan: So if I caught the minister, he said there were approximately 1,300 aggregate operations underway in British Columbia at the present time. Could he break them down in the five regions? How many in each region?
Hon. K. Krueger: We don't have that data with us, but we will provide them in writing.
J. Horgan: If there are approximately four per region, I'm assuming, based on the minister's comments and my understanding of the sector, there is going to be a concentration of aggregate operations close to urban centres or to population centres where that aggregate can be put to best use.
Hon. K. Krueger: That is a safe assumption. The more construction activity that's going on, the greater the demand for aggregate and the likelier it is that the industry will be trying to source that aggregate close to the construction sites.
The material is very heavy. It wreaks a lot of wear and tear on the transportation infrastructure. Of course, in our day and age of recognition of climate change and the problem with emissions, that's another reason to try and limit the distance that trucks need to travel to bring this heavy material to construction sites. So yes, there is a greater concentration in areas where there's greater construction activity.
I have a map in my office of the gravel pits around the province. Pretty much every tiny community needs a pit of its own or more, and the larger the community, the more construction underway - within reason. Obviously, the city of Vancouver doesn't have many aggregate operations close in, but the industry needs to source those materials as close as possible to where they're going to be used.
J. Horgan: I'm pleased to hear the minister make reference to the wear and tear that these operations place on our transportation infrastructure. I'm wondering if that is factored in when we're establishing resource rents. Does the industry have to be responsible in any way for replacing or upgrading infrastructure deteriorated as a result of their activity?
Hon. K. Krueger: It's a very good question. The industry does contribute to the cost of rehabilitation and maintenance of roads. Local governments set the amount that they contribute through soil removal bylaws, which set fees to cover rehabilitation and maintenance.
J. Horgan: If the infrastructure is a provincial highway, how is funding for that rehabilitation found?
Hon. K. Krueger: The industry and the businesses that comprise it pay taxes like other businesses. Their taxes flow into general revenue. General revenue is disbursed to the various ministries, including the Ministry of Transportation. There is no specific charge to aggregate operations by the Crown for those specific purposes.
J. Horgan: Well, not every business sends 1,600 trips a week with heavily laden twin dumptrucks up and down provincial highways.
Is there any consideration being given to ensuring that the cost of this industrial activity somehow has a resource kickback to the Crown so that the rehabilitation work that needs to be done for the damage done by these operations can be found through other means beyond the corporate tax or the small business tax?
Hon. K. Krueger: This industry, like other industries, pays its taxes, buys its licences and pays its insurance. Government doesn't make a distinction between this industry and others.
Personally, I've probably heard more about the aggregate industry than any other aspect of the portfolio in the time since I've been appointed, and I've learned a lot of interesting things. We use between nine and 15 tonnes of aggregate per capita in British Columbia, which means crushed rock, sand and gravel - every year, between nine and 15 tonnes.
Some 70 percent to 75 percent of what the industry produces goes into rehabilitation and maintenance, not just for the roads that the trucks around that operation are using but the roads all around the province - hospitals, schools and everything that is going on with regard to construction around British Columbia.
This is the least expensive construction material. We're fortunate to have it. I felt very fortunate to have an industry that could respond immediately when we realized the flood threat that we're facing this spring.
We asked them, if we opened up the hours of their permits, whether they could stockpile - even knowing that we weren't committing to buy the material - against the need, over and above the $33 million we're spending on emergency flood protection. The answer was yes. They're doing that right now. They're holding the material for us until August 1 in case we need it.
It's an absolutely essential material. We're fortunate to have it. It's a big part of the success of our economy and the good things that are happening in British Columbia. We don't levy any sort of punitive or specific extra charge against the industry for a material that we're very pleased is available.
J. Horgan: Well, the industry didn't create the material. The industry is making a profit from the material, and I think there's a significant distinction to be drawn there.
I don't disagree with the minister that aggregate is the foundation of a robust industrial economy. That's not the point. The point is that the activity is causing significant harm, predominantly in urban areas.
I read to you at the start of our discussions what was characterized as a crisis in Kelowna. I've had numerous discussions with the member for Maple Ridge-Mission, the government Whip, about the work he is doing with the ministry and others in the sector to try and find some common ground on this.
This is not an insignificant issue in communities. I don't know what happens in Kamloops-North Thompson on this front. But I know that on southern Vancouver Island, where gravel extraction has been going on for a long, long time in multiple locations, it has an impact on the roadways of the community. If we had Olympic events on southern Vancouver Island, perhaps we might be able to get some infrastructure funding on Vancouver Island so that we could address some of the challenges of a rapidly growing economy and the impacts that that's having on infrastructure.
My question is not specifically around the importance of the.... I'm Irish, hon. Chair. I like making cement and sticking rocks together. It's genetic. It hurts my back, but I like doing it nonetheless. I appreciate, and I use the material. I am an unabashed user of aggregate and sand and other products.
However, there are people in my community who are concerned about the proliferation of sites and what appear to be criteria that are unevenly monitored. That's why I wanted to know if the minister could.... And he will. He's undertaken to provide me with a sense of just how many sites per region there are and whether these four inspectors per region are getting around to look at all the sites and seeing the impacts they're having on infrastructure and on the quality of life for those in and around the pits.
I'll ask again a question specific to my constituency. I only have one colleague here, and I'll take some liberties and expand questions in my community. There's a pit on West Coast Road which is also known as Highway 14. This is a provincial road, a provincial highway. I believe the operators name is Arden. It has been operating in and around the Sooke district for many, many years. It would have to be on the list of bad neighbours. I'm wondering if the minister could tell me how many times this site has been visited in the past 36 months.
Hon. K. Krueger: First, to the general, and the critic's comment that it would be nice to get some of that activity on Vancouver Island. I watched with amazement the cost of the construction of the mid-Island highway all through my first term, which was five years in opposition from 1996 to 2001. There was substantially more money spent building the mid-Island highway than had been spent on the Coquihalla, which always looked to me like much more of an engineering feat. But a lot of material went into the mid-Island highway.
Also, when the member speaks of his constituency and the proliferation of sites.... I actually checked how many sites were approved in the member's constituency. Up to now, during the six years that our government has been in office, it has been 24 gravel pits and quarries. In the previous ten years, with an NDP administration, it was 41 gravel pits and quarries. That's pretty close. Yet I think we have somewhat fewer gravel pits and quarries over our time in office, despite a far more robust construction economy. It's a necessary material. It's needed. Industry, thankfully, is out there developing it, and they'd only be doing that if there was a market for it.
The member alluded to people, perhaps, thinking this is an insignificant issue to municipalities. We never said that. I said that it's a very significant issue. I didn't say that in those words but that I had heard more about it than almost anything else. It's a real issue in the Okanagan, for example - one of the busiest construction areas. I empathize with the people who are raising the concern.
At the same time, I note that in the Oyama area, for example, where there is vociferous opposition to new gravel pits, much of it is coming from a group of residents living in a reclaimed gravel pit who are also lobbying the Minister of Transportation for a $60-million highway bypass which will require a lot of aggregate.
On the specific site that the member asked about, since last July - so in the past less than a year - there have been four visits by inspectors. There was an application by the operator to expand. The expansion was turned down because there were problems with the application in the ministry's view. The proponent has done further work and has reapplied, and that'll be considered with the usual due process.
J. Horgan: Again, we don't have a dispute about the importance of the product. We don't have a dispute about the necessity of mining aggregate and other similar products for industrial expansion, and residential expansion as well. It's not confined to heavy operations. Everyone uses it. We agree with that.
What's concerned me and what's concerned many of my constituents.... Like the minister, I've only been at this coming up two years. People are knocking on my door and bringing issues to my attention. I'm amazed at the number of people that approach me on these issues. That's my motivation for getting a better handle on how it works.
I'm concerned, in the discussions I've had with the ministry and the discussion I'm hearing from the minister today, that ensuring the industry runs smoothly and efficiently and its needs are met is at the top of the list and that somewhere down from there is the impact on community. I'm wondering: am I missing something here, or is that the hierarchy? Is that how the minister and his staff review these issues as they come forward? Is it industry first and community second, or is it the other way around?
Hon. K. Krueger: I'm trying to answer the questions as the critic puts them. I said earlier that we pride ourselves - the ministry does.... I can't take much credit for it; I haven't been around very long specifically in this ministry. But the ministry has every reason to pride itself on its health and safety record. That is the primary consideration - the health of the workers involved, the health of the community, the health of the environment. That's the first consideration.
When the critic starts off saying we don't have a dispute with the worth of the industry or the need for the material and all of those things, that's pretty much what everybody concedes. But then, we all tend to think, including me: why does it have to be in my back yard?
A year ago, long before I was appointed to this position, a proponent brought forth an application. His application was for an operation that would be in my constituency, and right across the road live a number of people in the constituency of my colleague, the member for Kamloops.
It was a difficult thing to work through. The ministry helped us work through it, and in the end the proponent withdrew his request for a quarry and went with just a request for a gravel pit. Although those residents had all these same concerns - traffic safety, potential dust, noise and all of those things - in the end they accepted that with permit conditions, it could be an acceptable operation. At the end of the day, we do need these things.
It's easy to say that we don't quarrel with the value or the worth of the industry, because we don't. But then, it's harder to say and accept that there are going to be some such operations in our constituencies.
J. Horgan: Again, one of the issues that you have in urban areas is that people want things left the way they are when they arrive. I happened to arrive here by birth. Others come through other channels. When they get here, they want it to stay that way. I appreciate that's a balancing act and a challenge for government.
When my constituents hear of success stories like the Orca Sand and Gravel project, the Polaris Minerals Corp. partnership in Port McNeill.... The minister had discussion with the member for North Island on this. When they hear about a community that embraces the activity, has an abundance and is shipping it to California rather than shipping it to Richmond or Nanaimo or Victoria.... If it's on a barge, why not stop somewhere in and around Victoria rather than having mine activity in the capital regional district? I'll leave that with the minister to think about.
It's a disconnect for people. They go: "We're exporting this product." Yet there's an insistence that my idyllic, pastoral scene in the Cowichan Valley is going to be disrupted by numerous trucks a day. When I signed on here, I thought I was on agricultural land. There are processes, and they're followed, and I understand that. But it's a disconnect for the public when they hear about barges heading south.
With that, I'll give the floor to my friend from Powell River-Sunshine Coast, and we'll be wrapping up shortly
